GNRi1959 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I always quite liked the idea of point control by the wire and crank method. I was hoping to avoid point motors in favour of the manual method. I was wondering if I should take the extra time and effort to run it under the baseboard? I know it can be disguised above or made to look more prototypical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I always quite liked the idea of point control by the wire and crank method. I was hoping to avoid point motors in favour of the manual method. I was wondering if I should take the extra time and effort to run it under the baseboard? I know it can be disguised above or made to look more prototypical. I've done it under the baseboard, with a few bits of stick and paper-clips, even linking pairs of points to operate simultaneously. It's worth protecting the outboard ends of the rods from being caught in clothing, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Bicycle brake cable can be used, which is already in a tube of sorts so can save some time and effort... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Bicycle brake cable can be used, which is already in a tube of sorts so can save some time and effort... The model aircraft type of Bowden cables are a bit lower on the friction front and easier to cut to size - I have some pictures somewhere - they've been up on here before, but I'll find them again in a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 silicon tubing and suitable wire , available from eileens emporium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 The model aircraft type of Bowden cables are a bit lower on the friction front and easier to cut to size - I have some pictures somewhere - they've been up on here before, but I'll find them again in a bit. Here - I've found one - it's not easy to see, but each of the Bowden cables controls a pair of points that operate simultaneously. The 'far' point travels to its extreme movement first, in either direction, and the kinks in the linking wires allow a little more movement in the 'near' points after the 'far' ones have 'made'. The cables came up through the edge of the baseboard to levers with high-friction pivots, to hold the 'near' points in place against the spring of the mechanism. Even with just home-made plywood cranks held in by a wood-screw, they worked almost faultlessly for years. It was only really a lash-up to see if it was worth doing properly, but it didn't seem to need improving, so it was never improved... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Thats a great idea. All the cables and parts should be easy to get from any decent RC model aero shop (if such exists anymore in ROI after W J Owens closed in bray) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Keegan Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 ]Thats a great idea. All the cables and parts should be easy to get from any decent RC model aero shop (if such exists anymore in ROI after W J Owens closed in bray) If you look outside Bray , you can go to Dublin where you have Marks Models , Model Shop , Green Hobby & Model , The Radio Control Shop to name but a few . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Thats a great idea. All the cables and parts should be easy to get from any decent RC model aero shop We only really used the cables because we had them spare and it meant that a lever system could be used to operate them in a 'signal-box' manner. It could, in that case, have also been done with rods, as the wall you see is at the 'back' of the layout and the rods would have run straight to the front. With points that "run across" your line of sight, you don't need a crank for single points, just use the rod direct for push-pull. There were quite a few other rod-operated points around the layout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 ]Thats a great idea. All the cables and parts should be easy to get from any decent RC model aero shop (if such exists anymore in ROI after W J Owens closed in bray) If you look outside Bray , you can go to Dublin where you have Marks Models , Model Shop , Green Hobby & Model , The Radio Control Shop to name but a few . Yes but do any of those sell modelling parts. The Model Shop used to when it was in Bride street a gazillions years ago, but not the last time I popped in, just toy RC stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Holman Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 On Arigna Town, all the points are operated by wire in tube, Tony and thus far have done 20+ shows without any problems. Mine is narrow bore copper tubing and steel 'piano' wire. As I'd used cork tiles on the baseboard surface, it was easy to cut a channel for the copper tube, which I soldered to countersunk screws set in the baseboard top. The piano wire is bent upwards at the baseboard edge & another short piece of copper tube soldered on to this as a small 'handle'. However, the other methods described about all work just as well. The only minor problems I've had with this method is [very rarely] the wire can become stiff/tight in the tube. Should this occur, it is a simple matter to replace it with new wire. The only disturbance to the layout is where the wire joins the tie-bar - in my case a piece of copper clad strip, which just needs re-soldering. Cheap and simple, especially if your points are already self isolating, as no other wiring is needed. Alternatively you can drill a hole in the head of a sliding microswitch and [with suitable bits of small tube either side, use this to both move the points and change polarity at the same time - particularly useful if you use Peco points, where the contacts have never been particularly robust or reliable, in any scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishthump Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 A cheaper a more readily available alternative is curtain wire: You can use this as the tube and guitar strings make a suitable material for the wire controlling the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molderman Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hi Noel I do believe I have bout hundred lengths of Bowden tube and inserts that accepts rc pushrods tube is bout a metre long and also the saddles that facilitate the tube been screwed to baseboard and the breakthrough inserts that clean up the look on the base boards.I use this stuff in all my rc models I'll have a look tomorrow and take some pics and get them up , oh and I've also got bellcranks and 4 to 8 inch pushrods that can be cut to suit. Peadair... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hi Noel I do believe I have bout hundred lengths of Bowden tube and inserts that accepts rc pushrods tube is bout a metre long and also the saddles that facilitate the tube been screwed to baseboard and the breakthrough inserts that clean up the look on the base boards.I use this stuff in all my rc modelsI'll have a look tomorrow and take some pics and get them up , oh and I've also got bellcranks and 4 to 8 inch pushrods that can be cut to suit. Peadair... So tell me this were you a Futaba, Skyleader or Multiplex user? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 The only minor problems I've had with this method is [very rarely] the wire can become stiff/tight in the tube. Should this occur, it is a simple matter to replace it with new wire. The ones in my picture on the first page are 'tube-in-tube', this puts an end to unravelling woes. I once changed the clutch on my first motorbike, only to find the the wire had frayed inside the casing and was not allowing the release bearing to release properly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishrailwayman Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 For Cynwyd/Llangollen in N gauge and Shunters Yard in OO gauge, I have used simple push-pull arrangements which are operable from the from and/or back of the layout. The guide tubes are small diameter rawl plug lengths with brass wire to actuate the points. The screw linkages have an L-shaped wire which fits through the base board and through the point rocker bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molderman Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I was a skyleader (that does bring back some memories) and still am a futaba man with several systems that I use today of j10's and 6's and a couple of other generics cos I fly a 550 flame drone, windbag,helicopter plus 2 jetfoils (nicknamed 'tinfoil in Ireland')HMS Speedy, and CU-na-Mara, couple hovercraft, couple lifeboats,Perkasa gunboat, and others all large scale models from 4ft through 5ft and I make all my own fibreglass mouldings and castings and design electromechanics and lots more ! But I digress , when it comes to trains I need the expertise of you guys as I'm a learner and look forward and am grateful for any help given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) When using rod and crank point control I presume its best to connect to the pre-drill a hole in the centre of the tie-bar or is there any merit in using a system of cranks on the surface to try to look as realistic as possible and throw the tie-bar from one end only. Edited January 10, 2017 by TonyMcGartland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayner Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 There is a lot of work in setting up a working point rodding system on a OO gauge mode. Personally I would a wire and tube or push rod system described by David under the baseboard and the Wills cosmetic point rodding above the baseboard. http://www.hattons.co.uk/62545/Wills_Kits_SS89_Point_Rodding_Kit/StockDetail.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 There is a lot of work in setting up a working point rodding system on a OO gauge mode. Personally I would a wire and tube or push rod system described by David under the baseboard and the Wills cosmetic point rodding above the baseboard. http://www.hattons.co.uk/62545/Wills_Kits_SS89_Point_Rodding_Kit/StockDetail.aspx Thanks for this, I have only 10 points in total? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molderman Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Hi Tony I would think that the closer you can get to realism and or scale the better and in terms of rods and cranks that's what I will be doing and fixing the bellcranks onto the boards as per as long as you put a lost motion allowance into the linkage to compensate for over tensioning or straining the linkage so that you always have positive throw. I managed to get some pics of the linkages I use in my workshop so hopefully if I'm clever enough with photo bucket I'll have the pics up today. The other way to do scale bellcranks is if you have a 3D printer or know somebody who has one is to get them knocked up which only takes bout ten minutes once designed on a cad and then scaled down to your exact dimensions and the beauty of 3D is that your able to use the correct colour without the need for painting afterwards but like Manuel of Fawlty Towers (I know Nothing Senior) but then I'm looking forward to learning on here also and I'm preparing to build Drogheda, Platin, and Tara Mines at the end of the garden once the house move is over ! Peadair.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Thanks for this, I have only 10 points in total? There have been a few attempts at near scale working point rodding , notably amongst P4 enthusiasts, ( if you have access to their Forum, there is a useful debate ) . Personally , its way to finicky to get both operational and scale aspects of it right. dummy rodding on top, working wire in tube or rod operation below in my view dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Dave, Get the picture loud and clear, thanks Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) Are the commercial rod and crank point rodding systems available actually to scale? Edited January 14, 2017 by TonyMcGartland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Are the commercial rod and crank point rodding systems available actually to scale? Think the scale ones are cosmetic lineside scenery that doesn't actually function Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) Laying track today, it is hard work.I'm boring a hole under each point for connection to whatever system of point control I'm happy with. Edited January 14, 2017 by TonyMcGartland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayner Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Laying track today, it is hard work.I'm boring a hole under each point for connection to whatever system of point control I'm happy with. Great to hear that you have started tracklaying? Post 240 on this RM Web thread will give you an idea of the work involved with installing working point rodding http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76110-moving-coal-a-colliery-layout-in-0-gauge/page-10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Great to hear that you have started tracklaying? Post 240 on this RM Web thread will give you an idea of the work involved with installing working point rodding http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76110-moving-coal-a-colliery-layout-in-0-gauge/page-10 and of course thats O gauge , !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Are the commercial rod and crank point rodding systems available actually to scale? brassmasters and others do make etched brass components that can be made into scale ( or near scale ) working rodding. this article might be useful reading , http://www.clag.org.uk/green09.html its not for the faint hearted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 I've returned to this thread because I cannot walk away from trying the rod and crank system without giving up on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I've returned to this thread because I cannot walk away from trying the rod and crank system without giving up on it. Good man , pics as you try it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted January 22, 2017 Author Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) Before actually buying any of the components, does anyone know if commercial cranks are actually scaled for 4mm. I have pre-bored under all points so if I have to go under the baseboard everything is in place for that. I am also routing all cabling away from point work. Edited January 22, 2017 by TonyMcGartland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Before actually buying any of the components, does anyone know if commercial cranks are actually scaled for 4mm.I have pre-bored under all points so if I have to go under the baseboard everything is in place for that. I am also routing all cabling away from point work. brass masters in the west midlands do a brass fret that is capable of being used as functional rodding , http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/track_details.htm Model signal Engineering also do some components , that can be used in a functional system . MSE http://www.modelsignals.com/mse_home.htm and heres an interesting article http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1131/entry-15021-stools-cranks-point-rodding/ and the CLAG site http://www.clag.org.uk/green09.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNRi1959 Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 I have returned to this thread as I need to start seriously working on my point controls. After many weeks of research I am convinced that I am not going to spend the money needed to electrify ten points on a small shunting layout, its money that will be hidden under the baseboard and could be used with better effect above the baseboard. I have found to date that curtain wire and a wire insert is the most effective means of providing a 'push and pull effect'. Andy's method of connecting the rods to the paintwork and switching is also my preferred method. I'm carrying out a few tests today with various types of wire and then I'm going to have to start work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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