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Kirley

BUT Railcars

Question

I am currently building some BUT Railcars the 700 & 900 Series and am looking for information on how these Railcars were used by the various Railway Companies.

 

BUT CIE 700..jpg

 

 

I know they were initially used by the GNR on the Enterprise Service.

1. What would be the makeup of an ‘Enterprise’ train and how many Power Cars were used?

2. Were both the 700 & 900 (full cab or half cab as they are sometimes referred too) ever used in the same train formation?

3. What formation did CIE use after they received the BUT’s?

4. Similarly how did the UTA structure BUT Trains?

5. Finally how did NIR utilise these Railcars on their Services?

 

I was looking in Jonathan Allen’s excellent book on the NIR and he helpfully lists Trailers used by the BUT’s and because of their unusual corridor connection (what was the thinking behind that idea?) I take it coaches so adapted could only be linked up to BUT Railcars.

 

Jonathan lists the following trailers that the NIR inherited and could only be used on BUT’s;

Catering vehicles -three B6, B8 & B9

Brake First Corridor -two D5 & F16

Brake Standard Open -four 2 L12’s & 2 L14’s

Composite Corridor -three C2 & 2 F16’s

Standard Open –three 2 K15’s & K23.

 

In particular I would like to know for model train operations how many Power Cars were used in any train formation. Hope someone out there can help

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Hi Kieran,

Although you would know vastly more about the NIR system than I would, the following information may be useful. The 900 which had a cab at one end of the vehicle only, has run in formation with the 700s which were cabbed at both ends of the vehicle. BUT supplied 900s to the GNRB in '57/58 to "be run in formations of up to 8 cars in conjunction with the 700s". UTA crested ex-GNR 6car formation Derry-Belfast 1958 had 2x900s at the ends with two unpowered cars and 2x700s, (Irish Railways in Color, A second Glance, Tom Ferris p88)

CIE BUT Green c904n Macmine Jx, 1962 with ex-GNR coach, B'n'T coach and ?4w TPO van p26 same ref.

 

EDIT: Enterprise often consisted of only a 4 car set on weekdays in winter 133(900)-562-583-121(700),GVS 1968, Norman Johnston's Parting Shot p67

Also 128-594/594-131/134, another 3 car set ? (maybe Belfast-Derry route), p68

123-591/592-121 class also seen alongside, p69

Also 133-572--584, GVS, (1968) p72

I am not sure if these rakes particularly the last are complete or just what was recorded in the shot

 

Portadown June 1968, 2.30pm GVS-Dublin Enterprise 133-562-552-556-123-125-584-12x?, probably the traditional full set for summer runnning, p81

I have the impression that Class 70 took over about =69, then the Hunslet PPs

K

Edited by DiveController
typo and info corrected

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I think the railcars were assembled in Dundalk from parts supplied by BUT. The 700s seem to have been introduced before the single ended 900s, the original GNR publicity photo is of the BUTs is of an Enterprise with 4 700 class power cars and 2 non powered trailer cars.

 

I think the original intention was to design a train that could be divided to run to different destinations. This is supported by the double ended 700 Class and continental style corridor connections.

 

The GNR managed to operate a fast Belfast-Enniskillen service for a few weeks before the Irish North Closed in 1957 with a 700 class by dividing a Belfast-Derry (Foyle Rd) BUT railcar set at Omagh.

 

After the break-up of the GNR CIE seems to have used its BUTs on Westland Row-Rosslare services in preference to its own AEC cars which were less powerful.

 

There was talk of CIE selling its last serviceable BUT set to NIR during the 70s, CIE overhauled a set of BUT railcars during a loco shortage but the unit was stored in Dundalk paint shop and never went back into service.

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Thanks Kevin and John. I appreciate all the research you did Kevin before giving your answer.. unless you carry all that knowledge in your head!

John I know from your previous answers you do hold a tremendous a wealth of knowledge. Did you ever come across the reason why the GNRI used the continental style corridor connections making all the BUT Trailers unusable with other stock?

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Kirley,

 

"Did you ever come across the reason why the GNRI used the continental style corridor connections making all the BUT Trailers unusable with other stock?"

I'm not absolutely sure of my facts on this matter. I offer the following as a possible answer to your question. The GNR, AEC, 600 Class power cars, were incapable of running as multiple units, thus they were limited to a configuration of two power cars in any set. The configuration was often strengthened by including one or two unpowered cars between the two Powered cars. Alternatively, a two car set could have a third coach added as a trailer. Bearing these facts in mind the 600 Class were therefor limited in their make-up unlike the CIE 2600s which were capable of Multiple Set working.

The 700 and 900 Class railcars were designed for multiple unit running, thus they were wholly incompatible with the 600 class of railcar. I suspect the fitting of the Continental Type Gangway to the 700 and 900 was to ensure they would only be used together, and not mixed with a 600 series unit.

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Kirley,

 

"Did you ever come across the reason why the GNRI used the continental style corridor connections making all the BUT Trailers unusable with other stock?"

I'm not absolutely sure of my facts on this matter. I offer the following as a possible answer to your question. The GNR, AEC, 600 Class power cars, were incapable of running as multiple units, thus they were limited to a configuration of two power cars in any set. The configuration was often strengthened by including one or two unpowered cars between the two Powered cars. Alternatively, a two car set could have a third coach added as a trailer. Bearing these facts in mind the 600 Class were therefor limited in their make-up unlike the CIE 2600s which were capable of Multiple Set working.

The 700 and 900 Class railcars were designed for multiple unit running, thus they were wholly incompatible with the 600 class of railcar. I suspect the fitting of the Continental Type Gangway to the 700 and 900 was to ensure they would only be used together, and not mixed with a 600 series unit.

Was there a physical connection between the power cars to enable MU e.g thru the unpowered coaches. They were usually separated within the formation from each other, no different from a PP service though, I guess.

If any one has a photo of these continental gangways I would be interested to see how they appear

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Was there a physical connection between the power cars to enable MU e.g thru the unpowered coaches. They were usually separated within the formation from each other, no different from a PP service though, I guess.

If any one has a photo of these continental gangways I would be interested to see how they appear

 

The MU controls were electro-pneumatic with intermediate coaches wired to run with the railcars. The BUT railcars and coaches had the same type of rubber gangways as used in mainland Europe were draft roof and would have required less maintenance than the type of gangway used in Ireland

 

As David said the 600 Class was limited to a maximum of two power cars, the BUTs and CIE 2600 cars 4 power cars. Why CIE never re-wired its barely run in 600s to bring them in line with its own 2600 fleet is on of lifes little mysteries

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If any one has a photo of these continental gangways I would be interested to see how they appear

 

The connection is shown in the picture at the start of this thread, here's a closeup.

 

BUT 700 -125x.jpg

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Oh, understood. Someone I was under the impression there was something else other than what was on the front of the power car. Doh!

I presume the gangways just abutted each other when the cars were linked? I'm not sure what prevented these being used with other gangways (sorry I know little of the different gangways that were used)

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Both AEC and BUT sets could end up trailing all sorts of interesting stuff behind them. I saw a picture of a two car set at one stage (I think on the DSER) with an 1880s six-wheeler behind it!

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Indeed, it seems so outlandish that one would probably not run that as a model

 

 

0:59 Flat with Insulated Container attached to Limerick Waterford passenger trains

 

Despite dieselisation CIE & UTA continued to operate a steam age railway with loose formation trains into the 70s

 

One of the original GNR 600 class sets operated a regularly operated a link that included a return Enterprise working, a couple of off peak Amiens St Howth services and finished its day by working the Derry Vacuum to Portadown presumably with a string of vans coupled behind the railcars. The UTA basically treated its MPD & 70 Class railcars as locomotives and hauling freight trains on the main line and parcel traffic in and out of Larne.

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The Derry goods tended to be hauled by 70 class or multiple MPD cars. I never heard of GNR cars doing that....? For obvious reasons, MED cars wouldn't have been there either....

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Proper trains. The first train had 190 & A Class together, i haven't

seen that before.

 

Things like that were extremely rare, in fact exceptional. But they did happen! I only ever saw evidence of combinations like this maybe 2 or 3 times - a bit like the elusive double heading of NIR Hunslets or GMs. Rare, but possible.

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Wasn't disagreeing with that, just saying some of us might not model our trains with sufficient variety at times. THese old clips are great for demonstrating what ran together in those times.

 

0:59 Flat with Insulated Container attached to Limerick Waterford passenger trains

Despite dieselisation CIE & UTA continued to operate a steam age railway with loose formation trains into the 70s

Love that video. That train also has a 4w heating van with space for 3T of luggage AND two luggage vans!

Edited by DiveController

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