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Thread: 1960s train speeds crossing bridges and viaducts

  1. #1

    1960s train speeds crossing bridges and viaducts

    At 52 secs look at the speed of 121 class hauled train crossing the Barrow bridge in 1963 - no H&S speed limits then! Was that because the structures were better maintained or the wear and tear on the structures not known at the time?

    52 secs high speed over Barrow bridge


    53 secs not exactly a speed restriction on the viaduct. 2m6s 121 is fairly pushing on and 5m27s on viaduct and especially 5m43s!!!


    Note at 6m10s the two Sulzers double headed (or one being towed), a B101 in front and a B113 behind (Dalek). I love these old film clips from the zenith of Railway trains in Ireland.

  2. #2
    Depending on what film system was in use, it was often possible to project film at a frame rate that was different to that at which it was exposed, projecting at 24 frames a second would give a film exposed at 18 frames a second an apparent 1/3 increase in speed.

    It does look rather fast...
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Noel View Post
    Note at 6m10s the two Sulzers double headed (or one being towed), a B101 in front and a B113 behind (Dalek). I love these old film clips from the zenith of Railway trains in Ireland.
    It looks more like a C class that's being piloted (or hauled) by the B. The pioneer Sulzers had high axle loadings, so I don't think they would've ventured onto the Mallow-Waterford line, although I'm open to correction on this.

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  4. #4
    Senior Member Mayner's Avatar
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    The Waterford-Macmine Junction line closed shortly after the 1st film was made in 1963 with Bo-Bos taking over from J15s on passenger services. I have a copy of the 1960 WTT the general line limit of 50mph for the North Wexford line applied crossing the Barrow bridge, though there was a speed restriction on trains descending the grade from Rathgarogue through the tunnel to the bridge.

    The B101 apparently double heading with a C is an interesting one. Through goods traffic on the central section of the Waterford-Mallow Line between Dungarvan and Fermoy was quite light, the heaviest traffic was concentrated on the section between Waterford & Dungarvan and to a lesser extent between Mallow & Fermoy. Goods traffic was carried by a daily return Waterford-Mallow goods and an afternoon Waterford-Dungarvan return trip working.

    The B101 appear to have taken over from the Woolwich on the Rosslare Express & J15s on goods trains when the line was dieselised in the 1950s up to the arrival of the BoBos. The B101s would have been more sure footed than a B121 or B141 with a heavy loose coupled goods on the steeply graded Waterford-Dungarvan line. The double headed train was a westbound filmed between Durrow Viaduct and Ballyvole, the luggage van next to the brake van adds another dimension to the train.

    Was the operating department simply using the train to transfer the C Class and the luggage van to the Cork area or was one of the locos to be used to work a Dungarvan-Waterford goods with van?

    I was luck enough to see the level crossings in Dungarvan before the line closed in 67 and walk through Durrow Tunnel and over Ballyvoyle Viaduct before the track was lifted and even tried to cross the the DSER line Barrow viaduct before chickening out in crossing the opening span with the burnt out timbers.

    Plenty of modelling material with both lines
    John


    If I was going there I would'nt be starting here.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Garfield View Post
    It looks more like a C class that's being piloted (or hauled) by the B. The pioneer Sulzers had high axle loadings, so I don't think they would've ventured onto the Mallow-Waterford line, although I'm open to correction on this.
    That makes sense. I originally thought it was a C class myself, but from some angles especially 6m37s the side profile looked eerily like a B113/114 with sloping front. I presume the second loco was travelling un-powered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayner View Post
    The Waterford-Macmine Junction line closed shortly after the 1st film was made in 1963 with Bo-Bos taking over from J15s on passenger services. I have a copy of the 1960 WTT the general line limit of 50mph for the North Wexford line applied crossing the Barrow bridge, though there was a speed restriction on trains descending the grade from Rathgarogue through the tunnel to the bridge.

    The B101 apparently double heading with a C is an interesting one. Through goods traffic on the central section of the Waterford-Mallow Line between Dungarvan and Fermoy was quite light, the heaviest traffic was concentrated on the section between Waterford & Dungarvan and to a lesser extent between Mallow & Fermoy. Goods traffic was carried by a daily return Waterford-Mallow goods and an afternoon Waterford-Dungarvan return trip working.

    The B101 appear to have taken over from the Woolwich on the Rosslare Express & J15s on goods trains when the line was dieselised in the 1950s up to the arrival of the BoBos. The B101s would have been more sure footed than a B121 or B141 with a heavy loose coupled goods on the steeply graded Waterford-Dungarvan line. The double headed train was a westbound filmed between Durrow Viaduct and Ballyvole, the luggage van next to the brake van adds another dimension to the train.

    Was the operating department simply using the train to transfer the C Class and the luggage van to the Cork area or was one of the locos to be used to work a Dungarvan-Waterford goods with van?

    I was luck enough to see the level crossings in Dungarvan before the line closed in 67 and walk through Durrow Tunnel and over Ballyvoyle Viaduct before the track was lifted and even tried to cross the the DSER line Barrow viaduct before chickening out in crossing the opening span with the burnt out timbers.

    Plenty of modelling material with both lines
    Thank for info John. Even 50mph seems a fair old lick for loose coupled wagons over the long bridge.

  6. #6
    Didn't realise so much of the black and tan and flying snail wound up mixed in together for a time. Really interesting looking trains, not like now.

  7. #7
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roxyguy View Post
    Didn't realise so much of the black and tan and flying snail wound up mixed in together for a time. Really interesting looking trains, not like now.

    The grey and yellow for 121s appeared with their delivery in 1961/2 and the last example repainted black'n'tan was, I think, very early 1967.

    The unpainted "silver" (in reality worn and filthy greyish) was still to be seen on the occasional tin van as late as 1963/4.

    Black'n'tan started appearing on a widespread basis from early 1963.

    The late green livery appeared in 1955 (with the Park Royals) and green carriages could still be seen 1965/66.

    The very last GNR coach to lose its GNR brown livery was brake 3rd no. 114 (now at Whitehead) which was only repainted into black'n'tan in 1967, having skipped the green era entirely. Coaches in GNR brown were still to be seen on the UTA at least as late as 1964.

    GNR navy & cream could still be seen on the UTA in 1963, and on CIE about the same time. Beware: the GNR livery is NOT what's on the RPSI Cravens - GNR blue in carriages was darker, almost navy. The RPSI's livery is its own.

    If we draw out a chart of the above, to illustrate overlaps, quite some variety is possible. With both steam and diesel, and loads of varied goods traffic, and most stations still handling most traffics, we probably have the single most interesting and varied period in recent railway history.
    Last edited by jhb171achill; 06-06-2017 at 10:40 AM.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    From any info I have, it's as good as certain that the train is not so much double headed; it is more a case of rescuing a breakdown.

    As Mayner says, B101s were well suited to this line and indeed were generally more closely associated with the southern end of the CIE system.
    “An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support”

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  9. #9
    Cheers, very interesting indeed. Will encourage me to make up a few trains with a nice mix of the two, something different. Just a need a few Murphy 121's and I'll be off.

  10. #10
    As surmised, the C Class is most likely a failure (quite common with Crossleys then of course!) with the Sulzer locomotive rescuing the train.

    The GM 121 Class locomotives were more common on the North Wexford line, so the clip of loco B166 is an interesting recording. The North Wexford briefly re-opened after closure for a number of GAA specials in September 1963, hauled by 141 Classes such as B158, B147, B174, B177 plus as a double-header. I believe the re-opening necessitated the reinstatement of some signalling equipment. The 141s also worked the demolition trains during the lifting of the line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayner View Post
    The double headed train was a westbound filmed between Durrow Viaduct and Ballyvole, the luggage van next to the brake van adds another dimension to the train. Was the operating department simply using the train to transfer the C Class and the luggage van to the Cork area or was one of the locos to be used to work a Dungarvan-Waterford goods with van?
    The tin luggage van that's tacked onto the rear of the Waterford-Mallow goods as you highlighted appears to have been a frequent occurrence and I too have wondered for what purpose. I have asked those familiar with the line but I haven't quite got any concrete answer yet.

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