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Thread: CIE locomotive livery variations 1960-1990

  1. #11
    Here's to the next 20,000!
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  2. #12
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    Now ye talking BosKonay.. must dig out more IRNs for the 30,000th!

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mayner's Avatar
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    C233 & 234 were originally re-engined in the mid-1960s with Maybach 1200hp engines similar to the WR Warships as at the time EMD were only prepared to supply complete locos.

    They were outshopped in the plain black with white eyebrow and small yellow warning panel, one of the odder features of these engines was that the porthole window on the opposite side to the main air intake at the No2 end was blanked out.

    The Maybach rebuilds were fitted to work in multiple with the B141 class and seem to have been used mainly on Dublin-Limerick passenger trains and bulk cement workings out of Castlemugnet.

    The GM re-motored B201 Class appear to have been used on main line trains out of Heuston to Cork and Tralee and Connolly-Galway & Sligo passenger services before being concentrated on Dublin suburban workings.

    With their push pull capability I always wonder what would have happened had CIE followed NIRs example and used B201 class to top and tail Supertrain sets on Heuston-Waterford and Heuston-Limerick trains.

    The Colourpoint book Irish Metrovicks covers most of the livery variations of the two/three classes.

    Oh! Nearly forgot 001 appeared with the centre section of the roof painted black (much more sensible than orange) in the Supertrain publicity photos shot on the Wexford line.
    Last edited by Mayner; 05-01-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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    If I was going there I would'nt be starting here.

  4. #14
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    "B" Class Liveries

    Further to the initial subject of this post, a more detailed look at the various varieties of "B" class locomotives.

    B101 class

    All silver initially, with green numerals; then B112 got the dark green with midway line. These locos had no normal buffer beam as such, so did not initially have a red area at the front when in silver. However, the area where one would expect a buffer beam to be was gradually painted red on all locos following a well-received experiment on B104. B110 was the first to receive black'n'tan with "high" tan, followed by the rest of the class, but in the mid-60s all were painted plain black except B111, which remained b'n't. From 1970 onwards, all were painted b'n't with "low" tan. Following the introduction of the "Supertrain" livery, all still in traffic received this livery. I have an idea that at least one was painted this way but saw little or no use thereafter. The last two of the class were withdrawn in 1978.

    B113 / 4

    Details have been posted above by Eiretrains.

    B121 Class

    The grey and yellow livery has already been referred to. The reason 123 and 127 received red buffer beams in 1961/2 was because they worked specials to the Wexford Opera Festival! All were repainted b'n't, with CIE roundel on the sides, the first being B121, 132 and 134 in 1966, and the last two being 122 and 128 in 1968. The initial trio mentioned differed from the rest in having a (slightly) more square shaped "dip" in the white on the front end. From 1972, all were repainted into "Supertrain" colours fairly rapidly, and appeared in pairs on the main line expresses alongside "A"'s.

    B141 / B181 classes

    The 141s were delivered in b'n't but without the CIE roundel on the sides, which was later added, though in 1971 B177 still didn't have one. The later B181s all had a roundel from the outset. By degrees all were repainted into "Supertrain" style after 1972, but from memory b'n't locos of these types were around longer than in other classes.

    B233 / 234

    As Eiretrains mentioned, these were somewhat exceptional, and I agree - it would have been interesting to see what use might have been made of them on push-pull "Enterprise" type operations on CIE lines.

    071 Class

    Delivered from GM in a factory painted version of CIE livery. The "tan" was not CIE's standard shade, being significantly darker and more brownish. The CIE roundel on the ends was all white, instead of the normal style of tan surround and white letters, and it was not quite the standard shape of logo. It looked slightly larger than normal. At first repaint all received standard "Supertrain" livery.

    These locos did not carry standard orange with white logo. White logo, brown paint; normal logo with normal orange / tan.

    In the case of all of the above, "tippex" white lines were of course added post-'87, along with a change of logo.
    Last edited by jhb171achill; 09-07-2013 at 12:14 PM.

  5. #15
    The detail provided is immense and worthy to be included in the Resource Section of this Forum.

    To see it with accompanying pictures illustrating the different liveries would be a book I would be interested in and it would be great if it could include Coaching Stock as well. Well done jcb171achill.

    My only concern with all your extensive articles is will there be an exam at the end of them.. I haven’t been taking notes!

  6. #16
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    Hahaha Kirley - well I think anyone who has waded through them has already passed the exam! Research for the book, I am reliably informed, has started! Photos are indeed the issue, especially since many useful ones have already been published. Tomorrow a big trawl of various archives continues. And there's another book to be finished ahead of it, I am equally reliably informed!

  7. #17
    Now, a question to those like jhb who clearly know their onions when it comes to CIE lveries, what about coaches? Were there two variations of green in the later 1950's/early 60s, after the very dark green with light green stripes of the early 50s, as per the Murphy Models CIE liveried coaches.

  8. #18
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    Very much so - there were a number of variations.

    When CIE was formed in 1945, they adopted the green colour and logo of the Dublin United Tramways company; the "flying snail" dated initially from the 1930s, as did that shade or darkish brunswick green. CIE added the lighter green broad stripes, as seen on preserved buses and on the Bachmann "flying snail" coaches, which would actually be better in UTA green as they are of LMS design - they'd make very comvincing NCC coaches, but that's wandering off the point!

    This original livery had the "snail", the numerals and the broad light green lines edged in gold. The light green was initially not QUITE as light as the "eau de nil" but close enough. Thus, modelling the period 1945-50, a layout would have newly painted coaches in this livery, but quite a few, especially older 6-wheelers or parcel vans / passenger brakes still in GSR maroon of the later type, i.e. LMS red. This faded, incidentally, to a more browny red, due to brake dust; a weatherer's dream, well able to be very convincingly done by many here.

    In 1950 when the first AEC cars were introduced, the livery currently worn by Downpatrick's brake genny standard 3223 was adopted but only for railcars. Base colour was the same, but a single thinner light green line along the waist was used, and both it and the snail, as well as the lettering, no longer had the gold lining. Unlike locos and wagons, which were almost "sheep dipped" in their respective body colours, carriage roofs were always dark grey, and chassis always black at this stage, on all coaching stock.

    Carriage ends were black, never green, unlike the GSR, which tended to paint the ends of non-corridor stock in the body colour, though I am aware some were black too. The "steels", in GSR days, and all similar coaches, always had black ends. CIE generally painted all coach ends black, bar a few on narrow gauge lines.

    The "railcar" green had several interesting variations; some were seen (one or two in West Cork in particular) with a striped pattern on the curved very front of the roof. I am not sure what colour the stripes were, but this detail was only applied to a few AEC cars; most had grey roofs all over.

    There were variations. On the West Cork system, some old bogie coaches had the dark green with an unlined "snail" about a third along the bodyside, and another about 2/3 along; otherwise the standard was always ONE snail. On coaches treated thus, perhaps only one or two, there was no lining at all, and the unlined snail and unlined numeral was a very much lighter colour, possibly even white. On the Cavan & Leitrim, carriages carried a light green band above the window level only, not below, and neither it or the numerals & snail were gold-lined. The West Clare stock had no lining but were otherwise as above; many items of coaching stock on this system had no snails either; just plain green with a number (suffixed with "c", of course).

    In 1955, the Park Royals appeared in the lighter green now worn by DCDR's TPO, and the RPSI's Dublin heritage set, with lining and snails as on them; namely unlined in gold, and the thin waist line rather than thick bands of light green above and below window, which no vehicle painted light green ever had.

    Then we have the new tin vans and laminates appearing unpainted - chassis, roof, ends included. After 4 milliseconds in traffic this became an awful, drab, dirty looking dull uneven patchy grey (I'm really selling it, aren't I!). Carriages turned out thus never had flying snails at all, and numerals were reported by some to have been red on at least some of them, though locos turned out in silver always had snails and numerals in the standard light green, no gold lining.

    By 1960, ex-GNR coaches are appearing on CIE lines. Unlike the UTA, who painted out the GN crest on some and applied a UTA one to the otherwise-unrepainted coach, CIE left them alone until a proper repaint was due, after which they came out in the standard light green livery - except for one, the RPSI's 114, which is believed to be the only GNR coach whcih went straight from GNR livery into black'ntan as late as about 1965.

    Many of the remaining sixwheelers and old wooden stock was by now repainted into the light green, but by 1960 a few old examples in the dark green with full "above & below" gold lined light green bands were to be seen, among light green vehicles and a few "silver" ones.

    Then the famous black'n'tan era started. I was in Kildare signal box one day with my father and a 141 speeded through with an up train from Cork. The 141 can't have been long out of its Hornby box (or should that be Bachmann?), and the train consisted of carriages all in green, bar the last vehicle which was just repainted. "Oh!" says Senior; "is that the new livery!". "Yeah", said the signalman, in a somewhat deadpan way, "Ye'd think we'd have seen the last of the black and tans!".

    I digress; it was early 1963 when all but a few experimental coaches, started to be painted in b'n't en masse, even as grey and yellow 121s were appearing to haul them. This livery was to remain on Cravens unaltered until the early 1990s. As a corporate image livery it was very strong and ahead of its time. The next major change was of course when the "supertrain" livery appeared from 1972; all over orange, roof included, and the body colour for the first time slightly coming round the coach end, and a black band of window-depth. Post 1987, the "tippex lines" were added, giving the attractive livery of orange & black edged in white. And the rest ye know! The final incarnation of orange and black was to be that on the 2600s when new, with a black band just below the window level edged in white, the "Arrow" branding, and for the first time the chassis, bogies and roof were light grey instead of dark grey or black.

    If that was the "Fanta Can" livery, we then had the "Lilt can" lime green and dark blue, followed by NIR's "red bull" livery!

    Dunno what you'd call the current forty shades of grey (and green...)... a "novel" livery?

    Hope that helps!

  9. #19
    great information lads! wouldnt it be grear if all this info was available in a pocket sized book? heres hoping...Name:  saying-a-prayer-smiley-emoticon.gif
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  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by heirflick View Post
    great information lads! wouldnt it be grear if all this info was available in a pocket sized book? heres hoping...Name:  saying-a-prayer-smiley-emoticon.gif
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    Cut, paste, collate, edit, index, size 9 times roman. PDF
    No bother. That's what desk top publishing is all about.

    Now photos.....that's a different matter.

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