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Thread: GSR & CIE locomotive list for grey, green or black livery

  1. #11
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    Alan / Garfield

    Excuse my techno ignorance, but explain what a "stick" is and I'll gladly attempt it! :-)

    For a company the size of the GSWR, there is a surprising lack of detail about liveries they used. As far as can be ascertained, and I have more detailed notes about this SOMEWHERE, their locos were the colour of No. 36 prior to 1870. As far as I recall from notes I have, this was applied to all locos, goods and all. After about 1870 or so, they started painting them all in the livery seen on No. 90 at Downpatrick, which itself was taken from a large scale model on display in London at the HQ of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers. This is a dark olive green (likely to be the same used by the CBSCR) with red, black and light green lining and black background to the numberplates. There is one inaccuracy on 90, which is a maroon edged running plate instead of brown. I have to hang my head and take sole blame for that myself, as I gave incomplete information to those painting it!!

    It seems that about 1885/90, the lining changed to black and cream, but base colour was the same. From 1895 onwards, the GSWR painted all locos glossy black with red lining, though it is probable that quite a few were still kicking about in green for some time. In my grandfather's day in Inchicore, the famous battleship grey appeared, as an economy measure. It was probably the same as what wagons were painted, or close, as the GSWR painted wagons a colour which was variously described as black or dark grey. More of that later; I'm preparing a lengthy post on wagon liveries for here - maybe get it done later today.

    I have a large scale model wagon made by my grandfather when he was in Inchicore and it has the actual paint. I'll try to post a pic of it some time, and it will be eventually going on display in the DCDR Museum.

    Going back to locos, I reckon that a layout based on the GSWR any time between 1880 and 1910 could reasonably have locos of different liveries - green with both types of lining in the earlier part, and later on green on some, new black on others. What would make a very unique model would be something based on, say, some part of Tralee - Limerick - Sligo about 1930, with a few ex-GSW and ex-WLWR locos in GSWR lined black, getting a bit tatty looking, and a couple of brand new grey locos! Stretch artistic licence, and there's still one WLWR 4.4.0 in maroon... OK, now I'm rambling. Back to the point:

    No. 90 was indeed a type of 0-6-4T - though I believe that such an arrangement has various definitions... 0.6.0T + 4? But, yes, that's what it was in essence. Carriage portions on railmotors on all Irish companies that had them were in the standard carriage livery of the day. 90's would have been the deep reddish browny "crimson lake" to be seen today on ex-GSWR 1097 and 836 at Downpatrick. The DCDR's policy is accurate liveries (though some older stock has yet to be updated!) and the colour on these carriages is exact. Something at the back of my mind tells me it was unlined - at least for some of the time, but I'd have to check.

    Weshty - 90 is basically in working order but she is currently on display in the new carriage gallery (and is thus very accessible to modellers). She needs a few minor adjustments though, and is out of her boiler ticket. The work programme for the coming year as far as steam locos are concerned is geared towards O & K No. 3, so that both O & K's will be in traffic. 90 will be next.

    Now I'll get a cuppa and do the bit about CIE wagon liveries...

  2. #12
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    I meant to say, explain what a "sticky" is (not a stick!!)...

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jhb171achill View Post
    I meant to say, explain what a "sticky" is (not a stick!!)...
    Afternoon, JB! Making a thread 'sticky' means to stick it to the top of the list of topics on the forum, so it doesn't slide away out of sight when newer topics are started. It's a moderator action... and it's already been taken care of.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    Ah! Garfield, I defer to your techy knowledge.....

  5. #15
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    I should have added re GSWR carriage-portion-livery, that the livery used by the company for coaching vehicles seems to have been fairly consistent in contrast. The purple lake colour seems to have been used from early days on, probably with gold lining, but about 1900 they seem to have started using a brown and cream or purple lake and cream scheme, which was applied to the "Rosslare Express" and other main line trains, but not humble branch line six wheelers and stuff like that. My dad remembers seeing an old passenger van in Inchicore in the late 1920s which as he described it was "a sort of brown and creamy colour - very faded". There is much evidence to suggest that the GSR used remaining stock of the same dark paint immediately post amalgamation, but obviously with new GSR markings. This, described as a "very dark maroon" applied to everything until the mid 30s. Again, best example to see now is GSWR 836 at Downpatrick.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jhb171achill View Post
    Weshty - 90 is basically in working order but she is currently on display in the new carriage gallery (and is thus very accessible to modellers). She needs a few minor adjustments though, and is out of her boiler ticket. The work programme for the coming year as far as steam locos are concerned is geared towards O & K No. 3, so that both O & K's will be in traffic. 90 will be next.
    Many thanks sir. A question for you. Bandon tank B4 No.467 appears to be a dark blue-green in 1953 in Colin Boocock's Locomotive Compendium: Ireland (P.43). Is this the case or just slide colour abberation/degradation?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Glenderg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhb171achill View Post
    I should have added re GSWR carriage-portion-livery, that the livery used by the company for coaching vehicles seems to have been fairly consistent in contrast. The purple lake colour seems to have been used from early days on, probably with gold lining, but about 1900 they seem to have started using a brown and cream or purple lake and cream scheme, which was applied to the "Rosslare Express" and other main line trains, but not humble branch line six wheelers and stuff like that. My dad remembers seeing an old passenger van in Inchicore in the late 1920s which as he described it was "a sort of brown and creamy colour - very faded". There is much evidence to suggest that the GSR used remaining stock of the same dark paint immediately post amalgamation, but obviously with new GSR markings. This, described as a "very dark maroon" applied to everything until the mid 30s. Again, best example to see now is GSWR 836 at Downpatrick.
    I read recently that GSR's initial stock was painted a colour called "Crimson Lake" and that it had a beautiful tone to it, and given three coats of varnish to finish. However, as costs rose, and paint stocks dwinded, the original colouring faded, and only varnish was applied, so a desaturated colour arose. This would tie in with a "sort of brown" as it would still have remnants of carmine in the paint. But not much! By the time Bulleid got into his retirement job, a more LMS Maroon was adopted briefly? I'll look up the reference for you, it was in a Des Coakham book, Broad Gauge Carraiges I think. It would be nice to "box this off" so to speak. Richie.

  8. #18
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    Des - at least one Bandon tank was painted green, can't recall number off the top'o'm'ead... but - if is that one, it could be a combination of a dirty green loco and a colour-compromised slide. The tale will be told by wther it has lining like "Maedb" in Cultra - if it has, the thing is green underneath it all - but the standard CIE shade (again, as on "Maedb"). If no lining, it's grey for sure, as no green engines were ever UNlined, and no grey ones were ever lined. Of the handful painted black, a single Woolwich got red lining for the Rosslare Express, as per the Bachmann model.

    Glenderg - yes, that description is spot on. To see it in the flesh, the DCDR has been able to ascertain exact shade, and this is currently applied to two ex-GSWR coaches there (836 and 1097). It won't be long until it will also be applied to six wheeler no. 69 there. The LMS-style maroon was first applied to the "steels" (Bredin 1935 stock) and the seconf batch of Drumm trains. I got that info from Senior, who saw it all happen, so that bit's first hand...

    There is some evidence that coaches painted in Limerick may initially appeared somewhet bfrowner for some reason. Don't forget too that the GSR painted some main line stock brown and cream lined in black from the late 20s to about 1934. This, actually, is something I've yet to see in a model, but it was never applied to steel sided stock, only older wooden stock used on main routes. The Achill branch had a regular coach towards its end still in this livery, and quite fresh looking too, as late as 1934 - bogie compo 179.

  9. #19
    Wasn't the green Bandon tank the one that went 'foreign' (DSE section)?

  10. #20
    Senior Member jhb171achill's Avatar
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    That's right, Minister. The green livery was intended to be applied to main line locos and Dublin suburban locos. It wasn't an exact science, but it did apply to the Bandon tanks! One "60 class" GSWR 4.4.0 became green - now THAT would have been a sight for sore eyes.

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